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James Argyle's avatar

Yes, that post would be better classed as your type 2, opinion not expertise.

I enjoyed your opening thoughts, and your case studies are food for thought. My off the cuff reaction is: Just as you can get sexual release without raping anybody, you can also exercise power over and humiliate somebody without having sex with them. And you can do either (to a degree) via fantasy or simulation.

With rapists, we may be looking at an intersection of at least sets.

1. Want to have sex with or without consent. If it were possible to rape someone without them knowing, or without having to be brutal about it, how many more people would do it? I imagine many a rapist has told themselves this with regard to date rape drugs, or seduction strategies involving plying the target with alcohol. (This is obviously a rationalization)

2. Ok with harming others and brutality, and maybe even likes it.

For us humans, there seems to be a built in instinct (often failing or absent) not to harm fellow humans. This is contradicted by the sadistic streak we have (here I mean a desire or compulsion to inflict pain that is not neccesarily sexual). It is also contradicted by our natural tendency to group, ostracize, and outgroup. We dehumanize the other, they become the enemy, and then attacking and harming them converts into a good work, instead of an evil act. I believe in the better parts of the west we have been conditioned in a marvelous manner away from our wild, natural tendencies in this area, at least since WW2, and tend to discount how much of a factor this really is in human nature.

I don't see sexual desire as the primary motive in the cases you shared. I wouldn't describe what I do see as a will to power, except again to have the power to carry out the real urge - sadism for its own sake, a desire to hurt out of anger (similar to revenge), or a desire to hurt the hated 'other' and to inflict damage on an enemy.

The warlike grouping and outgrouping is a trait we share with chimpanzees. Once started this would become an iterative evolutionary process, and as per Peter Turchin that may ultimately be the engine behind the highly cooperative nature of humanity in this fallen world.

The sadism is a little harder to understand. Other apes also display signs of sadism. Shooting from the hip, I'd guess is that it comes out of the 'theory of mind' + carnivory, as both of those would explain sadism in nature. My very quick thought process here is cats and apes can be sadists so perhaps understanding how others think and act under stress is essential for the carnivore (or warrior). But perhaps for the carnivore its really a sort of savoring the moment of success.

How sadism gets linked to sex is unclear to me, but we do sometimes use language that compares seduction and sex to hunting, so perhaps there is some overlap of similar mental processes.

So the question is this: is wanting to hurt somebody fundamentally about wanting power?

My assumption about power is that its about social relationships, control, being the boss with the attendant increase in status. I would see wanting to hurt somebody as being at heart a different thing. A domineering person needs to know everyone is respecting their authority at all times, and following their rules exactly. Does a sadist care what their victims do as long as they are able to carry out their desires in them when they are wanting their next 'fix'? I see these as seperate things. Perhaps I am misled by the hollywood and the dramatic trope of the tycoon of finance or whatever using a dominatrix.

Let us consider your case involving a lesbian. You guess their motivation is to 'cure' her of lesbianism, which yes, that would be about power. My guess is that it is a fear of an 'other' they do not know and do not understand. I see the motivation as a desire again to harm an enemy, not to control an asset. Whether she was in fact a threat to them in any way shape or form would not have mattered. If they thought of her as an the enemy, outside of humanity, they would want to cause harm. However, if the fear of the attackers was that she was going to convert their wives or daughters and turn them against them, then yes it would be about power. Again the fear need not be realistic.

Lots of complexities here, and maybe a specific 'power to' as compared some general 'power' is semantic hair splitting with only a tenous connection to reality.

I am with you that rape is a grievous crime, and I share your desire for better justice than usually happens in these cases.

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Fay Reid's avatar

I agree with your conclusion, Graham. Rape is a hard crime to come to terms on. In America, it is only in the last few years that the police even bother to investigate. It doesn't matter what gender the victim is they are "punished by society for being a victim -even in some cases children.

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